Helpful ReplyPlans to end my debt free part of my life

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h3nryum
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2018/01/02 22:48:12 (permalink)

Plans to end my debt free part of my life

Im looking to start a food truck, have been planning it and looking into all the requirements for a while, Seems i will have to go for my first loan.... and i really do not like loans or owing any money to anyone.
 
The plans for the truck are a coffee truck/trailer.
 8'6" x 16' cargo trailer modified to add generator to a sound dampened space within the trailer( or on the tongue?), stainless interior( possibly aluminum top half stainless lower inside for price), under counter fridge and ice machines, cappuccino machine and blenders.  at some point maybe add doughnuts to the menu
The electrical is one thing i do not know, does it have to be ran a specific way on a truck? do we need a breaker box? how do you wire the generator to the breaker box or outlets? Would it be better to have multiple circuits or just one doing everything( im planning on 3 zones ) ?
 
Ive read in a few posts about you start making a truck with one idea then switch, well this all started with the idea of a few pasta dishes with sous vide meats but decided to go for something with less time to cook
 
 
Mock up pictures!
 
Top Down
 
 
layout, service window is above refrigerator, Green is generator here, grey is grey water, blue is potable water

 
 
Edit: disabled final image due to some concerns that were brought to my attention.
post edited by h3nryum - 2018/01/03 01:36:08
#1
Blakkmoon
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 00:51:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby h3nryum 2018/01/03 00:54:15
If you have spent any amount of time reading this forum, then you should know that the number one thing is check with your local authorities to find out as much as you can about how THEY enforce all the rules.
If you did not know this, then please spend a couple of weeks really reading as many of the build threads as you can.
We all have similar questions at first.
 
Assuming YOUR area is similar to most, you would want to build it as if you were building a bricks and mortar commercial space.
Which means, yes, breaker box, properly sized shielded wire and breakers...etc etc. ALL up to current code.
EVERY appliance ( or outlet ) should be on its own separate circuit.
Possibly even done by a licenced electrician depending on the rules where you are.
 
Someone locally here did a coffee truck.
Big shiny high end $10 000.00 coffee machine, with the grinder and press and milk frother...
All runs on 220 volt.
 
Your equipment will determine your needs.
 
I overbuilt mine. With ( hopefully ) more outlets than needed. With the ability to easily change the main ones from 110 to 220 pretty easily.  I used a the biggest panel that would fit, and I still have spaces open for expansion if needed.
Panel is wired in just like you would do to wire in a panel for a house.
Generator is the source, and sends power to the panel through a 50 amp plug.
 
 
#2
h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 01:11:44 (permalink)
My assumption was a single plug to generators 220v socket leading to the breakers.
Codes here are "easy" and I actually built my own home office and did it above code requirements due to safety concerns.
In residential code it allows multiple sockets on one circuit breaker, ill have to read the commercial code and set it up that way then.
I have read over a few topics and still checking on a few after each post

Personally everything i have on the plans is electric and debated on dual generator (main and backup through fail over switch) due to the trucks I've worked on always having generator issues so maybe even if its not a code requirement i should do separate runs for each outlet.

Thanks for the input :)
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Blakkmoon
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 09:51:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby h3nryum 2018/01/03 09:56:36
I too have read the code (here in Canada) though I can't recall it enough to quote it.
And spoken to a few electricians.
The need for 1 circuit per outlet is for the kitchen.
I don't think it's required for an office / bedroom.
I was also told that the next upgrade in the code is calling for 12 gauge wire in the kitchen and 20 amp breakers to handle the current flow. 
 
I went with that in mind and even took it a step further, using 12/3 wire and splitting the outlets, so top and bottom outlet are each on its own circuit.
This way I only have to change the outlet, and viola, 220v.
 
I don't know what kind of switch would be needed to transfer power from one generator to another, but I would think it would have to also be approved for that purpose.
 
I would think that it would be way easier ( from a code perspective ) to just unplug from one and plug in to the other.
You will want to also build in a way to connect shore power.
 
Again, unplug - plug in, is the simplest method.
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h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 10:16:37 (permalink)
Ive done some reading and it seems any accessable outlet has to be GFCI and in my instance it can be done with a GFCI breaker instead of using individual outlets(yay for cost perspective).
Each appliance needs a dedicated line(12/3 was my plan to keep with code requirements) but the "convenience outlets" can be on a common circuit so that saves me a bit on my plan.

For my idea of 2 generators i was going to use a commercial failover switch, they are designed for exactly that task, however its a costly plan on space and money so maybe later if i have a lot of generator issues.


Thanks for your info, i will probably add a disconnect from the generator to allow easy change from generator to city power
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 10:42:21 (permalink)
Here, we only need GFCI if it is within 3 feet of a water source.
So I opted for outlets ($20 each) instead of breakers ($100 each).
 
I don't think I have any convenience outlets. 
 
How big of a generator are you planning??
 
Cheap n loud?
or
Expensive and quiet?
 
For me - the one I want is way out of my budget.
So we will have to wait.
 
 
#6
h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 11:02:44 (permalink)
Blakkmoon
 
How big of a generator are you planning??
 
Cheap n loud?
or
Expensive and quiet?
 
For me - the one I want is way out of my budget.
So we will have to wait.
 
 


Cheap and loud but hopefully within a sound dampening enclosure under the rear cabinets(the green box in the pictures of the first post.)
17kw generators are relatively cheap that way and that will leave me with plenty of headroom if i want to add an electric skillet or deep frier.

I would love some of the better generator but yeah price is insane for starting
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 17:25:36 (permalink)
That is MY next step.
Building a hush box.
Fingers crossed that it works.
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h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 18:21:06 (permalink)
Blakkmoon
That is MY next step.
Building a hush box.
Fingers crossed that it works.


Where is the generator going to be? I dont see anything about it on your thread
Is your generator outside
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 18:37:26 (permalink)
Mine will be outside.
I have a platform in the back.
 
I already have one of these.
But I would like one of these
But its hard to justify triple the price to add another 3000 watts.
 
I need to test the one I have and see if it is enough.
 
What I REALLY want is one of these.

 
But a little hard to come up with the 8 to 10k k price tag for a used one.
Plus it weighs in at 1000 pounds.
But at least I would have enough power.
post edited by Blakkmoon - 2018/01/03 19:09:56
#10
h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 19:08:49 (permalink)
Aluminum box with rock wool insulation and a longer exhaust tuned properly will not loose any power but a lot of noise.

Ive boon looking at ( because it deleted my link) the generac gp17500
for my generator
post edited by h3nryum - 2018/01/03 19:23:15
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Blakkmoon
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/03 23:59:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby h3nryum 2018/01/04 09:30:57
So we are planning similar set ups for the generator.
I can't even get that big bugger you are going for up here.
I would have to order it and pick it up down in the usa.
Not that I am opposed to that.
But 3 k usd for me will work out to about 4k cad.
Once I get up to that range, I might as well go all out and get the big diesel bugger.
 
Anyhoo, when I studied a bunch of hush box designs, I found that baffles are supposed to help a lot.
Because sound likes to travel in a straight line.
 
Wood or MDF is suggested over just metal, because it is supposed to absorb more sound.
Although, with the rock wool to absorb sound, I don't know that it makes much difference.
 
I got a bunch of header pipe wrap for the exhaust.
It is supposed to keep the heat in the pipe until it is exhausted.
Should help keeps some heat out of the box.
 
Adding an external muffler took care of the exhaust noise easily.
 
The most surprising thing to me was that the INTAKE is 50% of the noise.
So I think that baffles for the intake is very important.
 
Here is my idea for the box.

 
#12
h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 01:54:52 (permalink)
That would actually be perfect for how my truck is set up. May have to create something similar with my venting.


CAD/USD conversion is a pain in the butt, ive sent and received a lot across the border and it makes it hard
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 11:47:08 (permalink)
Blakkmoon

What I REALLY want is one of these.

 
But a little hard to come up with the 8 to 10k k price tag for a used one.
Plus it weighs in at 1000 pounds.
But at least I would have enough power.


My brother had one of those style for his house in northern California, thing was quiet as it comes... A hell of a task to moove but if you had a long bed truck that could take the weight its doable just not fun in any way, especially on dirt roads as we drove on
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 21:11:27 (permalink)
Thanks BTW.
As I am working in the truck today.
I am thinking about the genny box all day
So this is just me thinking out loud....
 
The big one has all the power, but has so many draw backs.
Big, heavy, expensive.
 
Really, I think just one genny should be enough power for a regular daily lunch service.
But my concern was things like doing a festival.
And needing extra power for more appliances.
Big difference between doing a 3 hour lunch service and a 12 hour multi day festival.
So assuming the hush box works, maybe I can build it to house TWO generators...
 
I have already re-designed it about 6 times today.
 
 
#15
h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 22:58:47 (permalink)
I would design it as 1 large box with a physical barrier between the two making the engine compartments isolated, that way some how 1 over heats your not killing both.
If you do end up with 2 genys you can have separate circuit for each if running at the same time cause i assume you cant just daisychain the two on one circuit unless you use a parallel cable or similar
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 23:47:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby h3nryum 2018/01/05 10:16:22
Can't daisy chain OR run in parallel.
That kind of thing is only for certain inverter gennys.
 
I will have to get this one that I have fired up and test it to see what I can REALLY run with it.
 
If I go with a secondary unit, it will just be for running a few extra appliances,
but ones that would need to run all day.
So I should be able to do it with just a plug off the genny.
 
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/04 23:54:24 (permalink)
Maybe get a power strip like you would find in a server room or computer shop, 6 outlets over 6 feet and use that for the second one when needed.  like this:

post edited by h3nryum - 2018/01/05 00:43:10
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h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/07 18:24:55 (permalink)
Update:
 
I now have a family member that does fabrication so we will either:
1: fully fabricate a box on a cab on frame chassis
2:take the body of a cargo trailer and make that work on said chassis
 
With this the price actually is looking dramatically lower per square foot
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/07 20:20:32 (permalink)
So on to a TRUCK frame or TRAILER frame?
 
Just one hint.
Order a pre fab window that you can just frame in.
Or find a nice big vinyl slider.
Assuming you are in the USA.  WAY cheaper that I have to pay.
And probably well worth it.
post edited by Blakkmoon - 2018/01/07 20:22:13
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h3nryum
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Re: Plans to end my debt free part of my life 2018/01/07 20:25:10 (permalink)
Blakkmoon
So on to a TRUCK frame or TRAILER frame?
 
Just one hint.
Order a pre fab window that you can just frame in.
Or find a nice big vinyl slider.
Assuming you are in the USA.  WAY cheaper that I have to pay.
And probably well worth it.


Truck frame, for instance an F450 long bed frame.
With a frame that high tho im looking into airbag suspension for me to lower it down while at events, little spendy but well worth it if i dont have to jump out the window to hand things out

Also did a bit of searching and found a company a state over that makes concession trailers without equipment for nearly the same price as a bare trailer without stainless interior.... Yes please
post edited by h3nryum - 2018/01/07 20:27:54
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